Dr. Colin A. Ross
Author, Clinician, Founder
Ross Institute for Psychological Trauma
Stephen Marshall: Dr. Ross when did you first become involved in the research and study of mind
Dr. Colin. A. Ross: I was involved in Multiple Personality Disorder for 13 years before I became interested
in mind control. I diagnosed my first case of MPD while a medical school student in 1979. I saw one more case as I was training
to be a psychiatrist. Then I started seeing cases in late 1985 into 1986 and became a regional and then national expert in
Canada, I was based in Winnipeg at a medical school. I published my first book on MPD in 1989 and by the time I moved to Dallas
in late 1991 I had published quite a few papers and had done lots of consultations. But I had no experience with mind control,
no real interest in it, and hadn't heard or read about it.
Early in 1992, patients started telling me stories about, basically, either on military bases, in hospitals,
or in laboratory-like settings, having experiments done on them which involved EEG equipment, various types of equipment,
and people in white lab coats and so on. The purpose of the experiments was to create new personalities, basically
to create Manchurian candidates. So of course I wondered whether some of this was real or most of it or none of it or all
of it. What I did was decide to split two things into two, how to do treatment and an investigation into mind control. My
study of mind control hasn't really affected the principles by which I do treatment, kind of a separate track of investigation
Marshall: So, as you moved forward with your own research and investigation and your own approach to
methods of treatment, what was the reaction of the mainstream medical profession to this research? Did they believe that this
phenomenon was occurring? Cause there has been this whole question as to whether there was suddenly an outbreak of MPD or,
if it's something that has always been latent in the human mind
Dr. Ross: Well thats a big area of controversy and there are people who take extreme positions on basically
everything in psychiatry, including multiple personalities. Some people think its a fad that broke out in the 80s and that
its extremely rare and non-existent. And other people think that it has been common throughout human history, just taking
So multiple personalities, which is the group I belong to, then is just another form of various kinds of possession states.
Being inhabited by various spirits, demons, and it's a general capacity of the human mind to, all of a sudden, begin behaving
as if some other entity or being is in charge of your body. Then later on you come back and may have no memory or partial
memory or full memory of what went on. Human beings have been doing that behavior throughout all cultures throughout history.
And it seems that the phenomenon of multiple personalities is harnessing that ability of the mind to cope with trauma.
There is good evidence now from increasing number of studies in countries that MPD exists worldwide and its sometimes over-diagnosed
but most often it is under-diagnosed, by far.
Marshall: Interestingly, the first book I came in contact with as far as your work is concerned was
Blue Bird: The Deliberate Creation of Multiple Personality by Psychiatrists. I have to admit the first time
I saw the title, I was like I mean, the title itself speaks volumes about the nature of the work you have undertaken for yourself.
The idea that someone might actually deliberately create a multiple personality is so intense. Could you talk about that for
a second, I mean, when did you come across the notion that this might be occurring and can you elaborate or describe the kind
of medical mind-set that would inspire people to begin this type of work?
Dr. Ross: In 4 years of medical school, 4 years of psychiatry training, I basically had no instructions
on child sexual abuse or its consequences. Absolutely zero. No seminars, no lectures, no exam questions, no handouts, no case
conferences, absolutely no training of any kind. It was just not a subject. In fact, the main textbook of psychiatry used
in North America at that time is still the comprehensive textbook of psychiatry. So I used a 1983 edition and it's basically
the bible of North American Psychiatry and its 3000 and something pages long. In there, is half a paragraph talking about
how uncommon incest is in North America and there is a reference to a 1955 study saying that it is one family out of a million.
That was basically the status of psychiatry, incest is so incredibly rare youre never going to see it and you don't need to
talk about it, lets move on to things more relevant.
That was 1980 and, of course, what is actually true is that incest, child sexual abuse, and child physical abuse are
very common. Incest does not occur in one out of a million, it's more than one family out of a hundred. So psychiatry was
out by a factor literally of 10,000. So that was a big lesson that world psychiatry could take a position on something and
say its non-existent when actually it's very common. And that's a lesson I learned from that, then in the second half of the
1980s, again I was not interested in cults, Satanism, or sacrifice or things like that particularly. Then all of a sudden
therapists in North America working with multiple personalities started hearing all these stories about involvement in satanic
cults and human sacrifice. With no kind of context or background, no training or guidelines, on how to think about it or do
about it, so I wrote a book which was published in 1995 called Satanic Ritual Abuse: Principles of Treatment.
To write this book I pretty much read everything there is to read on satanic rituals abuse, which is not that much. That
included investigative reports, all kinds of different articles, books, and so on. The more energy I put into it and more
I looked into it, the more I was just chasing shadows. So you could never come up with concrete specific evidence that there
was human sacrifice going on anywhere. And it was just this kind of stumbling through the fog grasping at shadows, never getting
any substance or reality. That taught me that you can be hearing a whole lot of stories from patients but you can never verify
any of it, which is kind of the opposite lesson that I had learned about incest.
Then, in 1992, all of a sudden I start hearing these stories about what sounded like military intelligence mind
control. And Im trying to figure out: Now is this going to be like incest? Where there was a whole lot of it going
on and has to be brought out of the closet or is it going to be like satanic ritual abuse where you end up with no proof?
The thing I found was the more books I read (and I got 15,000 pages of documents from the CIA through the Freedom
of Information Act), the more I looked into it, the more reality there was. Then I basically started a process of
getting the references from one book and going to the library and finding those references and then looking at their references
and tracking reference to reference to reference. Also going to the medical journals from the 1950s and 1960s and taking out
the lead medical journals and looking through every issue to see either whom the author was or what the subject of the paper
was. Because I was tracking certain authors and looking for studies on LSD, studies on sensory deprivation and so on. I just
basically built up this huge network of facts and interconnections between mind control experimentation doctors which equals
psychiatrists, neurosurgeons, and psychologists. It became a vast web of documented facts involving all the major medical
schools and most of the leading figures in psychiatry.
Marshall: From what I understand and I hope you will correct me and elaborate this perspective, the
idea is that multiple personality is a minds protection against events or memories that are very traumatic for it. In fact
it is a survival mechanism in which the mind, or brain, erects a bio-electrical barrier to protect itself from the memory
of the trauma. Is that a correct way of thinking about it and could you explain to us a little more about how that
occurs, because it sounds fascinating?
Dr. Ross: Like everything in the mind and the brain, the amount we understand is about .00-something
percent of what there is to understand. And, basically, I'd say that for everything that is going on in the mind, there is
simultaneously something going on in the electro-magnetic field of the brain.
Thats kind of obvious, there has to be.
So when there is amnesia, there is going to be some sort of electro-magnetic correlation to that. Exactly what that is
I dont know but I've watched EEGs being run on people where there is a main person, then they switch to a child, then they
switch to an adolescent personality with different characteristics. And the EEG print out is tremendously different; its obvious
at a glance how dramatically different it is.
Thats an area of research that needs a lot more tightening and a lot more documentation. But I would say, with the evidence
we have so far, its pretty much for certain, not totally locked down, that when people with multiple personalities switch
from one personality to another, there is a change in the electro-magnetic field in the brain that, say, an actor can not
Obviously, if you watch Hollywood movies you can tell actors can do very good jobs of providing a picture of multiple
personalities that looks very real. But when you do an EEG on those people it doesn't change as it would with a real patient.
There are a few papers like that and a lot more research is needed but I think we have enough evidence to pretty well conclude
thats the case. There is something internally real about it even though its not literally real.
Which is something that occurs with auditory hallucinations - when you hear voices - whether if its with schizophrenia
or multiple personalities. All of these scanning studies that have been done now on people who are hearing voices, its clear
that the brain is behaving as if its actually hearing a voice.
So its not just a fantasy.
There is actually, in the reality, of the brain, the voice that is heard . But it is also a hallucination, and it is
as real as the voice of a real person, it terms of the part of the brain lighting up. So we have to get away from this question
of: Is it real or not real?.
I have a term I call the Central Paradoxes of Multiple Personality Disorder, which is now called Dissociative Identity
Disorder. The Central Paradox is its both real and not real at the same time. So you have to not get hung up on, I dont believe
in that: its not possible, it can't be real, because it isn't in fact literally real. There aren't a whole bunch of little
men running around in somebodys brain, but it is very internally subjectively real.
Marshall: So lets get to Blue Bird and the research, there is so much in this book people just need
to read it for themselves. First of all what was it like when you first, talking as a doctor, what was it like when you first
came across it? What was your reaction to the idea that there were actually people deliberately creating multiple personalities?
Then describe some of the actual experiments and the methodology they enacted to create these types of medical and psychological
Dr. Ross: I kind of got prepared for it with satanic cult phenomenon, because I had already spent 3
or 4 years everyday of my professional life going: Could this be real, could any of it be real? How's it possible? Because
the people that described cult experiences were describing members of the cult deliberately creating personalities. So I already
had obsessed, thought, and ruminated about this for a number of years in the context of satanic cults before the mind control
I certainly had lots of experience with documented cases of pretty extreme sexual abuse of patients by very disturbed
out of control doctors, psychiatrists, and therapists. It didnt really surprise me that doctors and therapists could
be doing something even more extreme than I had heard about. I put it into the context also of Nazi Germany and human atrocities
throughout history. The craziness and the destructiveness of the things I was finding out about, when you put them in the
context of Nazi Germany, wars, domestic violence, physical and sexual abuse, it's not that far out of the range of a lot of
things that have gone on in history. That helped me drop down my incredulity factor.
But the most amazing thing about it intellectually was the more I looked into it, the more connections I found.
Here is this doctor and I go to read a paper and low and behold he is the co-author of this doctor who I found about by some
other line of investigation. Then I would find that these two other doctors are together, then I'd find that the second doctor
was also at the same university as this other doctor. And just building up all these connections and seeing how it
wasnt just a couple of rogue scientists or mad scientists in a basement or a couple of deviant people here and there.
It was a whole network of interconnected academics mostly who were editors of leading journals, chairman of departments of
psychiatry at Yale, Harvard, and UCLA and people who are presidents of the American Psychiatry Association, getting lifetime
awards from the American Psychiatric Association.
The grandfathers of psychiatry all involved in this, all- knowledgeable about it, some with and without top secret clearance
levels. But it was something that was known in the profession, it was generally known yet there was not a word about it. Its
kind of like sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. As we are finding out today, all these leaders in the Catholic Church knew
perfectly well that all this sexual abuse was going on, but did they ever mention it, talk about it, or do anything about
it, no. Same with mind control experimentation, which is wildly in violation of the Geneva Convention and all ethical codes.
Highly harmful, no informed consent, and no follow up, it was just business as usual within psychiatry.
Marshall: Could you describe a couple of examples of experiments that were done to create multiples,
maybe some of the more successful or extreme ones?
Dr. Ross: Well, part of the problem is that when you get to the most sophisticated Manchurian candidate
experiments, they are described somewhat vaguely. This whole thing is in a pyramid shaped hierarchy. Where
creation of the Manchurian candidate is up at the summit and at the lower levels of the pyramid there are all kinds of investigations,
of all kinds of things, which are all pieces of the jigsaw puzzle on how to create a Manchurian candidate; which is an artificial
multiple personality for use in missions and operations. So you will see one person working on use of LSD in interrogation,
another person working on hypnosis, and another person working on sensory deprivation. Some of these people are just regular
academics that were doing grants and then some have top secret clearance and know that it is either CIA or military intelligence
experimentation. Then the people on the next layer up are taking some of the pieces and putting them together in the same
So an example at that level would be a man named Amadeo Maratzi who worked at Edgeware Arsenal
for a period of time in Maryland. Which is a big biological, chemical, and psychological warfare weapons
development center. He was at the University of Minnesota later where he had a grant from the Air
Force Office of Scientific Research, which is published in the medical literature. You can just go to the medical
school library and photocopy it and the paper includes the acknowledgment that it was funded by the Air Force Office of Scientific
What he did, basically, he got subjects and put them in an Ames Leaf room. An Ames Leaf room was a room first built by
a guy named Ames who was funded by the Office of Naval Research. Basically its an 8 by 12 cubicle box open
at one end. The subject sits just inside the box so that he can't see outside and all he can see is the walls, the walls are
all lined with leaves, leaves that have been pasted all over the walls. The subject wears goggles with a special kind of lens
called Nisaconic lenses, which was also developed by Ames and related researchers. What these lenses do is distort all the
angles. One side of the room the leaves are all big and sticking out, on the other side of the room they seem small and flat.
The floor will be sloping up on them at a crazy angle, and the angle of the walls doesnt fit with the angles of the floor
and so on. Then what you do is you see a photograph of the person from behind and they have two little knobs they can turn
which adjusts a white bar at the far end of the leaf room. The subject has the bar adjusted where it looks horizontal to him,
but its actually tilted at quite an angle.
So he's in the Ames leaf room wearing nisaconic lenses and he's on LSD. The LSD was supplied
by the Air Force. The purpose of this has two aspects. One is I mean, its unbelievable that anyone would ever had
done that, but there it is sitting on the shelves of the medical school library. On one hand its clever and its a part of
trying to figure out the uses of LSD in interrogation, mind control, and brainwashing. Then on the other side its kind of
really stupid because the net conclusion of the research basically was, if you sit in an Ames leaf room wearing nisaconic
lenses stoned on LSD, you cant see straight. I mean its all kind of colossally dumb in one sense but these are all
pieces of the puzzle when you get to the actual creation of a Manchurian Candidate for use in operations. All
those elements are being used but the exact formula basically is still classified.
But its really a combination of selecting subjects who are really susceptible. That is, theyre good hypnotic subjects,
either highly dissociative, highly trance-prone, and maybe with a trauma history. So you go through some sort of selection/screening
procedure to get people who are good for mind control experimentation. Then its a combination of good cop/bad cop techniques
used on them. Having control of their life space so that they're either in the military, in a prison, in a mental
hospital or they are in some sort camp of some kind so you have really solid control of who they talk to, who they know, and
what they do.
A lot of hypnosis, sensory deprivation and isolation, some forms of drugs, which would be either hallucinogens
usually, amphetamines, or barbiturates, etc. Then basically you create a new identity, which is not that hard to do in a good
hypnotic subject. You create an amnesia barrier between the main part of the person and the hidden identity. Then you insert
access codes, which can be either verbal signals, tones over the telephone, hand gestures, or basically - any kind of signal.
This is described very clearly and in great detail in these documents. Then what you do is, say the person is in the Navy
and you want to use him as a hypnotic courier. What you do is you bring him into the office and you give him some sort of
cover assignment, which is to take some non-classified documents from point A to point B. Then you say to him the moon is
clear which is the programmed hypnotic signal that switches him to his programmed personality. So now you give the programmed
personality classified information.
Dr. Ross: Yeah, verbally or you would give them documents to carry, but usually you would give it verbally.
Then you switch personalities using another code back to their regular self. Hes amnesic of all that information. He goes
to point B and somebody on the receiving end says the moon is clear. He flips to his Manchurian Candidate personality, he
delivers the message or information and then you just run it back and reverse again. And these kinds of people can be used
for courier assignments, penetration/infiltration assignments or assassination assignments.
Stephen Marshall: That sounds like a movie plot. Is that something that was ever done or is that
a hypothesis? Has any evidence ever occurred, where these people have actually.
Dr. Colin. A. Ross: The evidence is several things. One (not conclusive but) interesting piece of evidence
is the movie The Manchurian Candidate which came out in 1959. The basic plot is that there is a group of American GIs over
in Korea where they are captured, interrogated, and brainwashed by Communist Chinese doctors. They come back to the U.S. and
they are amnesic of that time period in Manchuria. And one of them has been programmed to assassinate a Presidential candidate.
He has handlers stateside, which include Angela Lansbury playing the part of one of the handlers.
There is a cue, which is a playing card, which switches him to his amnesic/assassin identity. So that's a plot of a movie
which is a piece of Hollywood fiction. But one of the CIA documents I got through the Freedom of Information Act is a memo
from the early Fifties. Which states explicitly that there is concern that a group of U.S. GIs may have been subject to mind
control while passing through a zone in Manchuria and have amnesia for a period of time they spent in Manchuria.
So, a scenario - almost like the movie proposal - is in a CIA document from five/six years before the movie came out.
The basic line of evidence is the CIA documents them selves and publications by a man named G.H. Estabrooks.
He describes initially, in a 1943 textbook and then as late as 1971 in a magazine article, of being a contractor during WW2
who created these Manchurian Candidates for the U.S. military. So then the question is: Well is he just bragging, is it bogus,
or is it real?
So again I decide to investigate it and my research assistant actually went to his college where his archival material
was sitting in four boxes in the library. He looked through the materials and photocopied a bunch of stuff and brought it
back and I went through it. I have documentation of correspondence between him and J. Edgar Hoover, spanning from
the 1930s to the 1960s. His contract with the War Department during WW2, correspondence with numerous other
mind control doctors with top secret clearance, seminars he gave at a number of military bases, contact with other members
of the FBI, and contact with high ranking members of Canadian and British Intelligence. So there is a whole body
of documentation that he really was doing what he said. As far as I am concerned, its just a fact that's out of the realm
of personal theory or personal belief or rumor or somebody said they heard that. Its just a fact.
Marshall: OK. Let me ask you this. Theres a point where, after having read your book and a lot of the
stuff online, we have to arrive at some sort of conclusion about the nature of this research. At some point this must have
become a much larger concern at some point it almost became an issue of not national security but national interest. Would
you say that this is basically the case? That at some point there was this overarching, sort of agenda conceived at some level
that then sought to exercise itself through various compartmentalized medical factions, that this could be exercised. Do you
think there was a brain trust, who were seeking at the end of the day to create a technology, which could in someway control
the human mind?
Dr. Ross: That again, that's not a conspiracy theory thats a fact. How we know
that its a fact is all the declassified materials. The mind control programs run by the CIA which started in April
of 1950, the documented programs the Korean War didnt start till June of 1950. So there was offensive and defensive mind control
experimentation in place in the CIA before the start of the Korean War. One of the things you hear all the time is that it
was just a reaction to interrogation of U.S. pilots during the Korean War. When you look at MK-ULTRA, MK-SEARCH, ARTICHOKE,
BLUEBIRD, and a whole series of these projects, its 10s of millions of dollars and thats just the CIA. Then there
are branches of the military that also ran mind control programs. For instance, the General Council for the U.S. Army in 1975,
at a Senate Committee hearing, presented a list of 130 different drugs that had been tested in mind control experimentation
by the Army alone. This is a big, big, big enterprise, now its not big compared to the budget for building aircraft carriers,
but its either 10's or 100's of millions of dollars. I would say almost for sure 100's of millions and probably over a billion,
dollar budget, from WW2 to now. Thats the kind of scale we are talking about. So that means lots of bureaucracies, lots of
high level people involved, lots of position papers, and lots of infrastructure. This is not just some little, small side
Marshall: We talked about this issue of the Manchurian Candidate and the question of why they would
even take the risk. Why not use better ways to get people messages, like codes? Why would they have people walking around
delivering the stuff? One of the things I thought was, well, it was an interesting mode of experimentation to work with. My
real question is: do you think that today, 30, 40, 50 years later, since we now know of these operations, do you get the sense
that mind control has stopped? Is that true or has it been kept going?
Dr. Ross: Its highly doubtful that it stopped. Now what was sort of implicit in your question was
that I think one of the things that kept it going was just the doctors kind of got off on it and thought it was interesting
and wanted to monkey around with it. The military is going to look into almost anything that has some promise, cause who knows
what will come out in 20, 30, 40 years. So 40 years ago there was somebody doing some kind of crazy experiments with some
kind of suit that had wires in it for some purpose and now we've got some sort of stealth uniform coming up. So the same would
be true in mind control. You can invest and look into it because you never know for sure whats going to come.
Another reason to keep it going from way back to the present is there is the counter intelligence aspect to
this. Which is, since mind controlled operatives are being used by opposing intelligence agencies all the time, you need to
be able to do reverse engineering on them, so to speak. You need to know how to interrogate them, get through their code,
get through their barriers, and figure out how they have been constructed. They have to look for moles, regular spies, and
sleepers. But then you have to look for moles, regular spies, and sleepers who are mind controlled who dont even know
they have been planted in their mission setting. That would include Al-Qaeda sleepers in the U.S. today. I think to really
be on the ball about combating terrorism we can't afford to be ignorant about mind control. It's clear what with
all these suicide bombers and so on, there are various levels and degrees of mind control. I'd say, I don't know this for
a fact, but this is just what I think must be true, it must be true that there are sleepers around the world now and not just
regular people who know what they are doing.
The reason I don't think its gone away is because of programs like STARGATE that were psychic spying
programs where people basically did astral projections to target sights, to gather information. Those were ongoing at least
into 1984; that's declassified and recognized now. And then, non-lethal weapons type experimentation which was a big mind
control component, theres articles in U.S. News and World Report on that kind of technology and on reputable sources on the
internet up to the present. There are various kinds of energy beams controlling peoples thoughts, memories, and behavior from
remote sites using energy beams and electronic methods. Thats all real, for sure, no question, absolutely.
Marshall: In the opening part of a short documentary we did called The Most Dangerous Game, which is
the precursor to this. In the opening, one of our interview subjects asserts that the whole realm of mind sciences is the
least understood of them all and that, in many ways, it will be the future battle ground. In so many ways I believe thats
true because if you think of the mind, the minds of the people as a form of real estate its like a last place, in some ways,
that we need to colonize. That those that seek power will try to colonize through the creation of these, what you call, bio-electrical
barriers. Do you see it that way or do you think that its too much of a sort of overarching plan? Do you think those who do
seek to control or to have power in some way will, in the future, try to control masses of people as opposed to just individuals?
Dr. Ross: In ancient China that was the basic operating principle, and ever since. Whoever controls
the ideology, controls information, and controls the beliefs and attitudes of the populace, is in control. I dont
think thats a new or science fiction idea. Its just that the technology for doing that is going to get fancier, just like
all technology. That includes actual physical gadgets for beaming various kinds of energy at people. Theres the listening
and surveillance aspects of it and the psychiatric, hypnotic mind control aspects of it.
Dr. Ross: Its all got to be getting more sophisticated.
Marshall: Im going to ask you at the end of the interview on how we can combat this, but let me take
this in another direction. As you know we are looking at one case study as an entry point to this investigation. Its a womans
book, her name is Cathy OBrien and I wanted to tell you a little bit about what she claims in her book and ask you if there
is any potential of this fitting in the modality as you understand as far as mind control is concerned.
Dr. Ross: Let me first say that as you know, I have met Cathy OBrien and Mark Phillips once. They came
and visited me once and I have read the book. I have watched your documentary trailer as well.
Marshall: OK cool, perfect. And you actually saw the interviews with them as well.
Dr. Ross: Yes.
Marshall: So I guess then you know, of course, that Cathy claims basically that she was the victim of
pedophilia by her father that she was in bestiality films. As far as her and Marc are concerned, that the agents who are seeking
chosen test subjects for the mind control experimentation were seeking children who were sexually abused because this would
be fertile ground for the creation of multiples. Especially because, as they say, these people may have already been multiples.
Is that consistent with your research, that children who are sexually abused and forced to be in say, for example, bestiality
films, would be excellent examples or candidates for a mind control program?
Dr. Ross: Well the answer to that is yes and no, which I will explain. Its consistent with my understanding
of how things work psychologically. But I dont have any research, documentation, or evidence that there has actually been,
for a fact, recruitment out of either cults or out of domestic incest or abuse situations or that there has been any organized
strategy to recruit traumatized dissociative children for mind control experiments. So were out of the realm of documented
But if I was running a mind control program and I didnt have any ethics and I was willing to do whatever it took,
that's where I would recruit. No question. Because if you want to create a really intricate Manchurian Candidate, not just
a simple, the main part of the person and the one other personality. If you wanted something that was really sophisticated
and had layers and levels to it, you definitely would want to start with a child who was primed by trauma to be dissociative
and compartmented already. So it makes perfect sense but I dont know for a fact that its happened.
Marshall: Right. Thats exactly what I was asking, if it could be plausible on a clinical level. So
Dr. Ross: I could put another twist on it for you. To do this kind of experimentation on human beings
you have to violate all codes of ethics and you have to be destructive to the person youre doing it to. We would be talking
gigantic malpractice suit if anybody could prove it. But given that you are that kind of person, you would actually be incompetent
if you didn't proceed that way.
Marshall: Yeah, no you're right cause in a sense you would want to choose the most or highest potential
Dr. Ross: Right.
Marshall: Right. OK. Continuing with Cathy OBrien for a moment. One of the most fascinating aspects
I find about the story is the use of motion pictures to aid in the compartmentalization by creating alternative realities.
In her case she says the Wizard of Oz was used by her father. She actually explains that her parents, her father specifically,
was brought to Boston at some point to be taught how to program her. After she was traumatized, they would often put her in
front of a film like the Wizard of Oz, the key words being in the land of Oz. Thus giving her an alternate reality and frame
of reference for what was happening while she was in that state. Is it possible that films could be used this way to trigger
identities and a sense of reality?
Dr. Ross: Well the basic rule of thumb is everything is possible. But a couple of comments on that.
One is I've heard variations in all of this including the detailed specifics of it from many people, not just Cathy OBrian.
So its not just her whose alleging that this kind of stuff happened to her including details like Oz programming and so on.
And the problem is once youre into high level, complicated highly funded intelligence operations, you know - just based on
common sense and going to Hollywood movies - there's going to be levels and layers of information, disinformation, and just
plain incorrect information. So in trying to figure out in any individual case, is this accurate information, is it just honest
delusional mistaken belief, is it planted disinformation? - you just can't tell. The only way you can tell is to get solid
outside confirmation. But the thing about Cathy OBrian's story, of course theres lot of fantastic details when she starts
alleging the number of famous people that have been involved in her story. But the general outline of it is perfectly possible.
Its perfectly consistent with all this documented information that is hard, hard, hard fact.
Marshall: When you were going through it earlier, the idea of the Manchurian Candidate/courier, it made
me think of another aspect of the story. Cathy talks about basically, as she got older she had two sort of husbands. The second
one, who was older then her father, was a ventriloquist in the country music scene. She talks about being a drug courier for
the CIA and thats one thing that is possible. We know there was a large drug operation out of Mena, Arkansas. She tells us
that they were running the drugs down into The Grand Olde Opry and the country music acts were transporting them out of there
and across the country. One thing about her story that always strikes me is how much easier it would be for two people, if
they made all that up, you would think it would be more worth their while to go to Hollywood and sell the script.
But what I was going ask you is this, the parts she gets into which is the most fascinating to a lot of people is that
she acted as a courier to people like Daniel Ortega and the Mexican president and vice president. The way you describe the
process of couriering information and materials is exactly how she describes it. And, though I guess it is remotely possible
she might have actually gotten this from you, if it is all just a big lie it is still uncanny. As Cathy describes it, she
would be triggered into a trance state by the receiving party and she would deliver those messages. That in many ways, thats
what you talked about earlier and that does correspond at least in theme with her book.
Dr. Ross: Absolutely, if you deescalate down from, like I said, the huge list of famous people, forget
that their famous people.
Marshall: Well, most of them are just politicians.
Dr. Ross: Politicians. Just forget that, put that aside for a second. The basic thing she is alleging
is not very far away from what is understood as factual. In fact, they are either totally consistent with absolutely documented
facts and things that actually happened or not very far removed. It's not other than the identities of the people she has
named, theres nothing fantastic or unbelievable once you grasp the basic facts.
Stephen Marshall: Right. I hear you. Now lets move to the last stage of the questioning about the
book and, in particular, Mark and Cathy. This concerns Marks modality for healing Cathy. One of the most interesting experiences
I had while shooting this documentary came after the second time I hung out with them. This time it was at their home in Alabama.
Again, as I told you, I was overwhelmed by just how, in many ways, normal they were. They didnt seem to be like trying
to sell anything to me. There was no desperation. There was just an eerie sense of just humility in the whole thing, which
I found most interesting. But when I got down there I was looking for some, I was trying to get more and more evidence. They
obviously have what they have, they have said they have been robbed several times over the years. Which is plausible considering
the nature of their claim against the State. But I was really trying to get some more substantial elaboration of their story.
And, so finally I said, do you have these deprogramming notes that are referred to in the book? To which they kind of looked
at each other nonchalantly and said, Oh yeah they're out in the garage.
So I went out there and finally got them to help me pull these boxes that have like been there for years and I found
volumes and volumes of her notes and her writing of the experiences as she recalled them. She has moments where she is with
a major politician like Bill Bennet and he is reciting Jesuits incantations. Very complex verbiage all of it in her handwriting
and, even, in the scripts of the various personalities that were triggered during the memory.
Dr. Colin. A. Ross: These are notes made during the work with Mark Phillips?
Marshall: Thats right, notes she made without any verbal prompting by him. He is very specific on this
point. He said he would never talk to her about the memories or during the process of her recalling them because he was afraid
that he would trigger false memory. He says, basically, his fundamental aim in trying to fuse back her different compartments
was to let her rationally not emotionally, but rationally - through writing - relive the memories. If she could recreate those
memories and re-feel them on a sensory level, after a two or three week period from the time she first recorded them, they
assumed they were real. If she couldnt, they trashed them.
Dr. Ross: The problem is there's nothing wrong with that procedure and it appears shes in a lot better
shape then she was, Im not faulting him, he's not a professional therapist as he acknowledges and knows very well. But it
seems he has been incredibly helpful to her, I'm not doubting that the outcome of the process was that she was in way better
shape then she was before, but none of these kind of indicators are objective. The fact that its internally consistent, the
fact that the person isn't obviously lying, is not just running a scam that you can spot they really believe and they are
really genuine about it, it's accompanied by believable emotions, it's accompanied by sensory arousal or sensations in your
body. Theres nothing you can name clinically that provides any evidence that it's real.
Because you can have memories that are very, very detailed, very believable, believed in by the person, all the
accompanying emotions, all the flashbacks, everything you expect and it never happened. Or you can have memories of something
that in fact objectively happened, you can have independent and even video tape confirmation of it and the memories can be
very fragmented, very vague, the person has all kinds of doubt about them and can't put them together in an orderly story.
Marshall: OK then lets take an example. Like where she has drawn a map of the Pentagon where she alleges
Cheney's bunker was located and Mark says he brought it to people and they have actually confirmed this is
a legitimate map. Could a person be able to create something like that? I mean, she has all sorts of maps of the different
places she was taken to. I have actually met a law enforcement official who was in Arkansas and who confirmed as valid Cathy's
testimony about a decapitation right near a place where they were dealing drugs. He confirmed that when got the information
from them he went and checked it out with a special investigator in Arkansas and he actually confirmed it was all completely
accurate. Does that.
Dr. Ross: Then now you are stepping outside normal clinical work. Normal clinical work we don't have
the resources, time, and energy to do that and we don't need to. We don't need outside proof or disproof to do our clinical
work. But now you are in the realm of investigation and documentation. Obviously the more of that you can build up the more
you start going, huh its real.
Marshall: Totally. Let me ask you this. When you watch the tape and you watch Cathy being questioned
by me, what was your perception? It's interesting when people who have not met Cathy but watch the tape. People who have not
watched the tape at all often say she is crazy or she is lying. Then when people watch it they tend to say, well she doesn't
look like shes lying and she doesn't seem like shes crazy. Whats your perception, is it somewhere in between? Sometimes its
almost beyond people's belief threshold, so they need to create something some way to explain what they cannot accept as true
or, at least, as true to her.
Dr. Ross: Well I agree and this is not just based on the tape. Like I said Ive read the book and I also
met with both of them. I also had some direct experience and asked them questions myself. I definitely dont think Cathy OBrian
is either lying or crazy. Im very convinced shes not lying or crazy.
Marshall: And you have had people that are both, so just to confirm.
Dr. Ross: Yes or a jumbled mix of all of the above. But that by itself doesnt prove anything in terms
of the reality of the story. Its possible that, I mean someone with a complicated story like that there's no way it is going
to be 100% real. Its bound to be mixed up somewhere to some degree. But its possible that it is way more than 0, 5, or 10%
real, it's perfectly possible.
That's the whole point and what I like about their approach of not talking to the subject is, it would be good if we
could absolutely prove or disprove her story. But her story just takes us into this whole problem of this world. Which is
a very is it real or not real, what part of what part is not real? kind of world. And when this is the whole thing when you
start looking into this, you can gather up all these documents and all the stuff thats in my Blue Bird book, but then you
run to the edge of the facts. Then you know that there are layers and layers of higher levels of classifications and documents
that havent been declassified yet and programs you dont even know the name of. So when you get a little bit of unconfirmed
information you never know for sure if its real information or its just some urban legend or what is it.
Marshall: Let me ask you about Mark, I know you had the opportunity to talk to him a couple of
times. He speaks very highly of you and he respects what you do. You know he sees you as the number one resource in the field.
How do you describe Mark and how he would talk to you about his modality when you talked to him? How would you characterize
Dr. Ross: Well he's somewhat mysterious because hes got this intelligence background that when you have
a intelligence background you can't really say exactly what it is, right?
Dr. Ross: So you are always wondering, OK, well who did he work for, what exactly did he do, and where
does he fit in? So there's always this kind of question with Mark. But he seems like, when you see him playing with the raccoon,
I think that tells you what kind of guy he is, right there. And he seems like he has been in this for a long time and has
paid quite a personal price for it. So he doesnt come across to me as some kind of con artist.
Marshall: No, but people often have a little issue with him, he triggers something in people. I know
when people watch the tape they go, there's something about him and I have had other people say, well that's his spooky background,
they tend to have that quality. There is something definitely about Mark that everyone finds absolutely mysterious. But then
there's Cathy who I have watched to an infinite degree I mean really scrutinized her. And she just comes out as one of the
more beautiful people on the planet. And her point about Mark is that his actions have always been nothing but love and I
really believe that.
Dr. Ross: I buy that too. No doubt about that.
Marshall: Interesting. What I want to get into now is, I guess I just want to ask you a couple of questions
and go into a more positive end of how we can protect ourselves. One thing Cathy talked about is the use of harmonics, the
use of electric frequencies to move into the realm of mass mind control. From what you understand of subliminal and neuro-linguistic
programming, are there frequencies that can be used to trigger the mind into a beta state that makes us more suggestible or
is that off the mark?
Dr. Ross: To tell you the truth, I dont know for sure about that kind of stuff. I know for sure, based
on collective facts, that theres a lot of sophisticated mind control technology that exists. I found out just recently - because
someone handed me some materials - that you can actually search for U.S. patents on the internet. I mean they are all there,
I have copies and I know the patent number. You can search in the government web pages and find it on the internet. So this
is a patent, its an old patent from the seventies, but the device that is described, it has the patent number and the name
of the person that holds the patent and every thing is there, its a device for remote sensing of the brain waves.
Remember this was in the seventies, so imagine how much more sophisticated it is now.
Basically the device from a remote position monitors the brain waves of the target and then it takes all that information
into a computer and then it sends some sort of energy beam back at the person, specifically to modify their brain waves. Then
that modified brain wave is sensed again, so there is a communication channel. It can force communication channel between
the mind control device and the person's brain and there is a patent for that in 1973. So this stuff exists and its real.
Then you get into the scenario of the insane person who thinks the CIA is after them is wearing an aluminum foil helmet.
So we've known all along that those people are all crazy, but then you read the background of radiation experiments on unwitting
civilians, biological and chemical warfare, LSD and other hallucinogen experiments on unwitting civilians and citizens. Basically
the whole armament of chemical, biological, and psychological warfare weapons have been tested on unwitting civilians. So
it stands to reason that non-lethal weapons must have been too. So in the world, there has to be a whole bunch of people who
have had strange beams pointed at their heads. So may be not all of these people are crazy. Then you just keep going around
and around with these thoughts and considerations and so what is actually technically feasible? I don't know in terms of mass
control of the mental state of the population. I just dont know technically because that's not my area and the answer is classified
Marshall: Got it. But when you, this is more of a general question - I understand you can't answer this
in any conclusive detail. But, from what we read and understand from the history of civilization and the whole approach of
medicine. How would you characterize a government or a body that would seek to try and control the people? I mean, do you
think its been just a minor incursion beyond the moral rules that govern a community for the sake of science and its curiosity
regarding the vast realm of the mind or do you think this is something that goes back to more historical nature of government
of government and power that always tries to dominate and control what is an ever expanding population? How would you characterize
this movement if you will?
Dr. Ross: Well I think its nothing new under the sun cause if you look at the movie Braveheart
or you read about druids or you go back in the Celtic history, you'll see that there are the military people, the political
people, and the shamans or the druids or whatever they were called in that culture. And there's always somebody who is an
expert on casting hexes, hurling curses, changing fates, reading the future. And the military and political people are always
consulting with those people.
Then those experts in the mind, shamanism, parapsychology, and seeing the future are always to some degree involved in
operations. So I think this is just a 10's of thousands of year old theme of human history. The thing now, like everything
else, is getting we have the technical capacity to do this in a computerized internet non-lethal weapons mass media kind of
fashion that didnt exist before. Anybody who can get control of this technology can directly get access to billions of people
in the same day.
Marshall: So the last question is what, I mean people who just read the last hours worth of our conversation
or have had a paradigm shift or feeling worried, I mean how do you go to bed every night? It obviously comes down to two questions.
One, do you believe in the inherent goodness of humanity and do you believe the government would ever exercise this? Thats
the first question, the second one is, if an individual comes to the conclusion perhaps this could be possible what do we
do? Is there a way to protect ourselves against this type of control?
Dr. Ross: Well I do believe in the inherent goodness of humanity, but on the other hand humanity has
been doing an awful lot of evil stuff for a long time. Would the government be willing to use mind control? Government is,
if we look at all the governments of all the peoples of the world, for the last couple of thousand years governments have
gone from Stalin to Hitler to whoever with an enormous amount of murder, mayhem, and damage. So this is nothing out of the
realm of the ordinary for atrocities perpetrated by the governments. And there is always rationalization and justifications
for it. So to me its not science fiction or unbelievable. Its just another level of technology and way to control things.
I basically, if you can imagine when I was, its not like every psychiatrist in the world that has written a book about
this. Harvey Weinstein wrote a book which is an excellent book, but its really focused on his Dad and several
other people who were experimented on in Montreal by one mind control doctor, Ewen Cameron. Its not about the whole picture
and other people who have written excellent books are not psychiatrists. So if you look at MD psychiatrist, I am the only
person in the world. When I am going to a CIA reading room and looking through their documents and ordering thousands of pages
of documents, writing letters to the CIA and making FOIA requests, talking about it in public it can make you a little paranoid.
I just basically decided not to be paranoid, I couldn't figure out what else to do. So I also decided that it would be a joke
to try and skulk around and do stuff in secret. Like I'm going to out-fox the CIA or whoever in terms of they are not going
to get in my computer and they are not going to over hear my conversation, that's absurd. So I just decided to, I call it
the Three Days of the Condor strategy, which is sort of like what Mark and Cathy did just put it out in the public.
What I know, what I say, and what I think. And then there is nothing to hide. Then, basically, I just feel that I have
an ethical responsibility as a professional and it's kind of a duty as a citizen to do something about this and what I do
is talk about it, make it public, document it and try to get people to understand that this its a real thing and its a big
thing. We can't just stop doing it because now we've got this terrorism problem. Terrorist and opposing governments
are going to be using this for the next thousand or hundred thousand years. So we are kind of locked into knowing
Where I come back is really the ethics of medicine and psychiatry because I think there's a conflict, which I write about
in the book, between the National Security oath and the democratic oath. And when you are a doctor you obviously have morals,
ethics, and oaths. You are not allowed to do unethical, dangerous, harmful experimentation. But if you step out of your civilian
role as a doctor and you are under the National Security oath, all of a sudden all kinds of doctors have been doing all kinds
of very unethical, harmful things. Its been invisible, there hasn't been serious discussion about it, no ethical oversight
or guidance, there's no protection of subjects. The mind control doctor doesn't take his experiments through the local universities
So I think the control point that needs to come into play is through ethics of doctors. Because you can't do sophisticated
mind control without psychologists or psychiatrists involved. So then I turned it into, because I'm not an anti-government
or military person at all. I fully support the existence of the CIA and its role in the Cold War and in the
War Against Terrorism, I've turned it into an ethics matter, that its absolutely outrageous and a crime against humanity.
It's against everything that medicine is supposed to stand for and thats where the control point needs to be.
Marshall: Gotcha. That was amazing.
Dr. Ross: So thats how I have worked it out in my mind.
Marshall: Thats great Dr. Ross. Thank you so much, I mean that's a lot of information so that's going
to conclude that for now.